Mister Rusty
The Orange Army arrived earlier today to finally start on the restoration of this iconic layout built by Buchanan (Buch) McInroy, Rob Jones, Mick Clements and Melv Crump at the turn of the century. It has since been to more than 30 exhibitions. It suffered damage on its last outing to Milton Keynes last September, triggering the decision to retire it and refresh various elements.
The opportunity has been taken to operate it in DCC mode in future, which has simplified the wiring.
It took 20 minutes for myself and Mike Finch to strip it to bare boards, with regard to the electrickery.
Some photos of before, after will be later, for some reason.20190125_211853.jpg  20190125_211923.jpg      20190128_150230.jpg 20190128_150204.jpg 20190128_150146.jpg  
You can see why it was described as a Cat's cradle. It worked, but had un-necessary feeds, loops and joints.
The only items to be re-used will be pertinent to signalling, which will be more comprehensive than before. This is a power pack,  a merg board for 'bounce' and 3 signals, all needing repair in themselves.
So same bat time, same bat channel, some hope, but further news shortly.
Bunkerbarge,
I am locked out, hooked up on your last message, this is the only way that l can get into the forum.
Anyone else having issues?
Please check.
Could anyone reading  this, please advise Jazavalley or another admin , thanks
Be careful, in case it's a virus. The message received is:-
The last email that was sent to you was returned as spam by your email provider. Please update your account with a valid email address. Ahjay said  that my details are all in order, correct address and all.
Pete
Quote 1 0
Mister Rusty
The derelict wiring.
20190128_175218.jpg 

The Peco motors had been used for years with a Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU).The bent-over assembly tangs had become loose, causing failure on occasions. Never had one burn out, though.
What am l using?
Give you all one guess 😉
Having used them on Buch's new layout very successfully in 2-wire configuration, l see no reason to try any other method.
The next phase is to lift the track - all of it, as since its original build and its intended future role was confirmed, the loco size has gone up to being able to ultimately handle a Garratt, but that's  the next phase. This phase is ensuring platform edges etc have clearance , not always so at present.
Anyway, foods cooked, l'm off.
Who said thank goodness? 🤣
Bunkerbarge,
I am locked out, hooked up on your last message, this is the only way that l can get into the forum.
Anyone else having issues?
Please check.
Could anyone reading  this, please advise Jazavalley or another admin , thanks
Be careful, in case it's a virus. The message received is:-
The last email that was sent to you was returned as spam by your email provider. Please update your account with a valid email address. Ahjay said  that my details are all in order, correct address and all.
Pete
Quote 1 0
Bunkerbarge
I used to frequent an alternative Model Railway Forum where I had numerous discussions regarding whether DCC wiring was simpler or not.  As usual the 'Old Guard' would try every means they could come up with to justify that DC was actually a simpler installation than DCC and I used to get fed up trying to explain otherwise.

To see you write:

The opportunity has been taken to operate it in DCC mode in future, which has simplified the wiring.

gives me such a sense of relief!! 
Quote 0 0
Julian
Bunkerbarge wrote:
I used to frequent an alternative Model Railway Forum where I had numerous discussions regarding whether DCC wiring was simpler or not.  As usual the 'Old Guard' would try every means they could come up with to justify that DC was actually a simpler installation than DCC and I used to get fed up trying to explain otherwise.

To see you write:

The opportunity has been taken to operate it in DCC mode in future, which has simplified the wiring.

gives me such a sense of relief!! 

Totally agree that.  Plus it is possible to control many more functions, through those same 2 wires.

Julian
Quote 0 0
AHJAY
A brave new start. I find it hard to strike the first blow when disassembling a layout.

Re wiring, Perhaps the old guard will never change, but that's OK because its a hobby and their choice after all... Its a shame they try to persuade others to avoid new choices though.

DO be sensitive to them. They often mask the real reason and it may not be whats actually being said.

Sometimes they do not want to change for cost/financial concerns, lack of understanding, fear of change or perhaps just a simple wish to avoid needing to open up presious locos. In the end, it's all valid, because its a hobby... and people really should want to do the things they do!

------------------

I once did a fun-to-do presentation at quite a large model railway conference with the title "It's a hobby not a hair shirt".

Apart from walking through "a normally tedious days shopping with the wife" and explaining the many things in homewares shops, chemists, cosmetic counters, haberdashereries and supermarkets that we can quietly pop into the trolley to help with hobby things, one of the main objectives of it was to try to get rid of the DCC-DC divide and get the too-serious hobby people to share the hobby as something to explore and enjoy, not presenting it as some sort of "pain in perfection" or perpetual penance that had to be endured.

The dyed-in-the-wool DC modellers all grinned hugely when I asked any "New-to-DCC-Evangelists" to simply shut up about it until after they had done a little real wiring after opening their shiny new DCC systems... ie: until they actually knew what they were saying because they were sounding like members of a door-knocking religion and were just putting people backs up...

However those same DC guys went back to their perpectual scowl when I asked them to stop inventing "witchcraft reasons" NOT to go DCC.

Actually - there is a little less wiring with DCC in many ways but the key thing is that the structure and nature of it is totally different. Power delivery under a complex wave form is chalk and cheese compared to DC or low frequency AC... Even voltage drop calculations and wire weight calculations need to change significantly. (Fortunately we don't have to understand the witchcraft of the maths related to it)

Wire weight is different, distribution is different... and yes it can be less. What is much easier as Julian alluded to is the nature of "DCC wiring for versatile, smooth and simple overall layout and loco control" as waveforms, software and handset control replace switches and sections.

As an extreme of this:

We did an example of a mid-sized bedroom layout done with DC or DCC. 24 electric points all with panel indicators etc as many want.

To wire points with panel indication and create a control panel using analog means meant around 960 soldered joints (including wiring a connector between panel and layout). This did NOT take cab control or multiple section control into account either... Thats progably a hundred or more additions!

The fully DCC version using Cobalt iP Digital point motors with a decoder built in and an Alpha-type interface on the panel needed only TWO soldered jonts in the panel, ONE 6-wire RJ12 connector to the layout and 48 dropper wires to connect the motors to the DCC power bus (remember of course that Alpha is plug and play and that iP Digital have spring connectors)

That doesn't mean that there cannot / will never be many more wires with DCC, as adding detection, signals and other things will all add wires too...but it does demonstrate that huge savings can be made if some careful thought is given to the choices made.

It also doesn't mean that a dyed-in-the-wool DC user can't keep driving trains with DC and wire the layout for digital accessory/point control... a VERY good compromise for those who want to avoid/can't afford to buy lots of decoders for an old loco fleet AND avoid lots of wiring at the same time!

regards. Ahjay
Quote 1 0
Mister Rusty
Wires, what wires?
The longest piece of wire is likely to be from the control panel to the track, about 150mm.
Despite the naysayers and doom-mongers, l use the rail itself as the bus, just cross-linking at the end of thpe boards, point motors fed from the rails.
This will feed the points and traction, lighting, signals are to be reviewed for the same feed as l determinedly wish to avoid wiring from an engineering and design exercise to minimise absolutely.
Photos as l go.
Bunkerbarge,
I am locked out, hooked up on your last message, this is the only way that l can get into the forum.
Anyone else having issues?
Please check.
Could anyone reading  this, please advise Jazavalley or another admin , thanks
Be careful, in case it's a virus. The message received is:-
The last email that was sent to you was returned as spam by your email provider. Please update your account with a valid email address. Ahjay said  that my details are all in order, correct address and all.
Pete
Quote 0 0
AHJAY
Good luck with that.

It doesn't bother me that you are doing it, but I do think it is a wrong thing to do.

It is not nay-saying or doom-mongering, it is the laws of physics and how data and power transports need to be for efficient and reliable digital power delivery. DCC is very robust and tolerant (fortunately) but it has its limits.

We see the results of "doing it my way", despite good advice, every week in one form or another.

Most (nearly all actually) "Surprised customer" problems relate to power supply/power and data delivery/wrong wiring choices and related errors, and most items that are looked at because they are retuned as "do not work" or inconsistent in action actually work perfectly once wired and used properly.

Reading instructions and wiring properly are favourite avoidances of modellers... and those who fit that group are most of the workload for our customer service staff LOL. Actually not reading instructions and wiring incorrectly BOTH totally invalidate warranty, so its fortunate that we are generous!!!!

It WILL catch you out eventually - unless the layout stays very small and not digitally complex :-)

kind regards, Ahjay
Quote 1 0
Bunkerbarge
Very interesting points Ahjay and I agree with it all.  I was of course lucky to be starting from scratch and I can fully understand the reluctance from many who simply do not want to embark on rewiring a large layout.  What I do find disappointing though are the old guard who simply insist on supporting the old phrases that DCC is more expensive and more complicated to understand.  I will always offer my own findings for those about to embark on similar paths for them to look at and then make their own minds up over.  I never say my way is the way something should be done, it is entirely up to individuals to make their own decisions.  They also seem to stubbornly refuse to accept that DCC can even be in a comparable price range if you go for basic decoders and control systems.

As for more complex I once read a description of how to create isolation zones in a shunting yard with switch control for all the points.  It made DCC installation and operation a breeze in comparison.

To add to Mr Rusty's comments, while I am in the process of constructing the layout the track is temporarily supplied in many varied and definitely not recommended ways.  Eventually every single piece of track will be individually hard soldered to either the bus or a bus bar soldered to the bus.  That's what I want to do and realise it is a lot of work but it will eventually be done.  In the past year however with a 17 foot by 15 foot pair of loops with a couple of crossovers and a few siding points incorporated with power going through fishplates and twisted together wires I have never had a supply problem!
Quote 0 0
Mister Rusty
Ahjay,
I fully accept what you say and understand what you are saying.
I will say it now, l am a prat 🤡 that is pig-headed. However, one layout wired similarly is working well. Both are under 16' long and operated from a central power input, so, tracks are no more than 8' from any power supply.
I have checked with a multi-meter as to what the resistive value of the rail versus bus wire and found no difference between the two, down to 1/100 ohm on my lengths.
I respect and acknowledge your superior knowledge, given freely too, and look forward to you telling me 'told you so', when l run into trouble
 
AHJAY wrote:
Good luck with that.

It doesn't bother me that you are doing it, but I do think it is a wrong thing to do.

It WILL catch you out eventually - unless the layout stays very small and not digitally complex :-)
kind regards, Ahjay


😀 Like me, the layout is digitally simple. 😀

The naysayers and doom-mongers is referring  to a bunch of analoguers that l know, certainly none of the members on here.
I will say here and now that l have no tie to DCCconcepts, just a very, very satisfied customer, never being greeted with less than a warm welcome, either through media or in person.
I SAY THIS WITH ALL SINCERITY AND SERIOUSNESS -
TO ALL - DO NOT DO AS I DO, BUT DO AS AHJAY ADVISES.
By working from a zero baseline and putting in items only when needed, a truly lean set-up will be established, erasing any compromises done 'just in case'.
I admit that l am considering a conventional bus to supply signals, buildings and other stand-alone items. But that is a maybe.

Richard, may l thank you again for your advice. Whilst l may be able to sort myself out, l understand that others may consider following me as an easy way out.
My advice is DON'T.
I know how much thought time l have put in to get this far. 😉
Pete

Ahjay's sage advice is clarity in the muddy world of dcc advice.
Bunkerbarge,
I am locked out, hooked up on your last message, this is the only way that l can get into the forum.
Anyone else having issues?
Please check.
Could anyone reading  this, please advise Jazavalley or another admin , thanks
Be careful, in case it's a virus. The message received is:-
The last email that was sent to you was returned as spam by your email provider. Please update your account with a valid email address. Ahjay said  that my details are all in order, correct address and all.
Pete
Quote 1 0
Jaz Avalley JazAvalley

Ahjay,
I fully accept what you say and understand what you are saying.
I will say it now, l am a prat 🤡 that is pig-headed. However, one layout wired similarly is working well. Both are under 16' long and operated from a central power input, so, tracks are no more than 8' from any power supply.
I have checked with a multi-meter as to what the resistive value of the rail versus bus wire and found no difference between the two, down to 1/100 ohm on my lengths.
I respect and acknowledge your superior knowledge, given freely too, and look forward to you telling me 'told you so', when l run into trouble
 


😀 Like me, the layout is digitally simple. 😀

The naysayers and doom-mongers is referring  to a bunch of analoguers that l know, certainly none of the members on here.
I will say here and now that l have no tie to DCCconcepts, just a very, very satisfied customer, never being greeted with less than a warm welcome, either through media or in person.
I SAY THIS WITH ALL SINCERITY AND SERIOUSNESS -
TO ALL - DO NOT DO AS I DO, BUT DO AS AHJAY ADVISES.
By working from a zero baseline and putting in items only when needed, a truly lean set-up will be established, erasing any compromises done 'just in case'.
I admit that l am considering a conventional bus to supply signals, buildings and other stand-alone items. But that is a maybe.

Richard, may l thank you again for your advice. Whilst l may be able to sort myself out, l understand that others may consider following me as an easy way out.
My advice is DON'T.
I know how much thought time l have put in to get this far. 😉
Pete

Ahjay's sage advice is clarity in the muddy world of dcc advice.

 

I daresay in general Ahjay is right, his knowledge is usually worth paying attention to, BUT it does not mean the you cannot buck the system, and hopefully it works out, and proves another way can work. Better not better? who knows who needs to even argue the point, as it is always good when there is more than one way to skin  cat....

just don't skin the station cat 😃 (being a bit pig headed myself I for one will applaud if you get it working 🙂 (furthermore it would not surprise me to find that someone has called me a prat in the past either LOL) AND if it does not work, you have learned that it doesn't although from what you say it does but if it does not the law that Ahjay is nearly always right holds LMAO......sneaking off now before someone slaps the cheeky cat 😃

Jaz Avalley

Model Railway Discussion Group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/495282280644117/
Quote 0 0
Mister Rusty
Jaz, it does work 😉 but l will not advocate it, Ahjay knows much more than me about DCC, l built Och Ae (Buch's shed layout) to prove/disprove my ideas. So far, no issues, but time will tell. It is early days.
Also, both Buchshee and Och Ae , including fiddle yards are short end-to-end layouts, both being under 15'.
15488908881566058854970454398938.jpg 
Today's on-site work has been preparing the now denuded trackbed ready for the new track. All the points have been cleaned, trimmed and inspected to ensure suitability for another 20 years. 5 of the 9 are original.
The rest of the day has been spent creating a schedule of works, organising the logistics of supplies, the track is already behind schedule but should be here for the weekend. Point motors to be ordered on Friday, then the track gang can get to work. Hopefully a full possession over the weekend should see thetrack laid by Monday, fingers crossed.  

MacBraynes are providing a replacement bus service until normal services are resumed, using their vintage fleet to tie in with the heritage theme of the line.
15488917490688777080317451805821.jpg  g'night
Pete
Bunkerbarge,
I am locked out, hooked up on your last message, this is the only way that l can get into the forum.
Anyone else having issues?
Please check.
Could anyone reading  this, please advise Jazavalley or another admin , thanks
Be careful, in case it's a virus. The message received is:-
The last email that was sent to you was returned as spam by your email provider. Please update your account with a valid email address. Ahjay said  that my details are all in order, correct address and all.
Pete
Quote 1 0
Bunkerbarge
"You wait for hours then all of a sudden three come along at once!"  ðŸ˜†
Quote 0 0
Mister Rusty
Bunkerbarge wrote:
"You wait for hours then all of a sudden three come along at once!"  ÃƒÂ°Ã…¸Ëœâ€ 


🤣🤣🤣

1548922730364242916663749309384.jpg 
Inverness 2 Fort William 1
Sounds like a football score
The Campbeltown service has already departed  (can't find the b. thing!)

Jaz, they are yet to be weathered.
First things first, let's get the trains running again. 
Pete
Bunkerbarge,
I am locked out, hooked up on your last message, this is the only way that l can get into the forum.
Anyone else having issues?
Please check.
Could anyone reading  this, please advise Jazavalley or another admin , thanks
Be careful, in case it's a virus. The message received is:-
The last email that was sent to you was returned as spam by your email provider. Please update your account with a valid email address. Ahjay said  that my details are all in order, correct address and all.
Pete
Quote 0 0